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Thread: How to extract DMT (The Easy & low-cost way)

  1. #1
    Experienced Psychonaut IJesusChrist's Avatar
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    extraction. (DMT)

    SO.

    MHRB is acidified. Naptha pulls fats 2-3x. Then basified to a pH <11.

    1.Extracted with chloroform.
    2.Extracted with toluene

    Which would be better to use in this case?

    The problem arose when I realized that almost all of the internet failed attempts at extracting DMT from MHRB is due to not enough NaOH (not high enough pH). Naptha is very non-polar, so in order for DMT to cross over, the pH must be very very high.

    Toluene is slightly more polar, thus the pH can be slightly lower.

    Chloroform is even more polar thus an even lower pH can be used (however NaOH + Chloroform = no good)

    So, do you think basifying to ~pH 10 and extracting with chloroform (via ammonia base) or toluene would affect yields?

    Thanks doods
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    Re: extraction. (DMT)

    So youíre doing several acid washes (at ph2?) and removing the solids, de-fatting aqueous solution with naphtha, then basifying to ph11 for non-polar extraction?

    You used this same procedure in the past using naphtha again as the non-polar extraction solvent at this ph and achieved no yield at all?

    If so, that is strange.

    How are you measuring ph?

    Are you using powdered root bark?

    Try using boiling naphtha then do a freeze precipitation, decant the naphtha and do successive pulls. or perhaps a higher ph.
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  3. #3
    Experienced Psychonaut IJesusChrist's Avatar
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    Re: extraction. (DMT)

    I did get yields, but they were very minimal and not very clean (my bad with no defat on my last pulling).

    Why I came up with this is because with naptha, you need the highest pH possible! With toluene or chloroform that massive pH isn't needed.

    With naptha pull you need like a 100:92 ratio of bark:NaOH.

    That's dumb!
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    Re: extraction. (DMT)

    the PH 13 is because to break emulsions.

    (dmt has a pKa around 9 so pKa+2 should extract 99% of the alkaloids)

    chloroform and toluene both work but extract a lot of more stuff. especially with toluene you extract a yellow/orange spice which is called jungle spice by most and this is a lot stronger and also different from nn-dmt, so maybe chloroform is better.

  5. #5
    Experienced Psychonaut IJesusChrist's Avatar
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    Re: extraction. (DMT)

    Hmmm.

    Lets see.

    The pH 13 is to break the emulsion yes, but that emulsion breaking at such a high pH is because we are using such a nonpolar solvent. For the emulsion to finally release into the nonpolar, we need to really push it in there...

    Toluene & chloroform are polar, and will break the emulsion at a lower pH (if my understanding is correct).

    This way, we do not need a 100:92 ratio of bark:NaOH to break emulsions,

    with toluene it would be ~ 100:70?60?

    Chloroform 100:50?60? Idk for sure - these are extreme guesstimates.

    But their increased polarity WILL pull more things over - you're right. 'Jungle spice' or dark spice, whatever... must be more polar than DMT.
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    Skilled Psychonaut buffachino's Avatar
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    Re: extraction. (DMT)

    How are you measuring Ph?
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    Re: extraction. (DMT)

    I'm not
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    Re: extraction. (DMT)

    There's your problem.
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    Experienced Psychonaut IJesusChrist's Avatar
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    Re: extraction. (DMT)

    The problem isn't my yields - I figured that problem out, you just raise the pH...

    Reread what I'm posting - it's more about alternative teks than the previous problems.
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    Skilled Psychonaut buffachino's Avatar
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    Re: extraction. (DMT)

    I just wonder how you ever plan to get good results without proper measurement.
    It will simply take a lot of trial and error I suppose.
    Itís just harder to know what went wrong if you donít know all the relevant variables.

    As for alternative teks, there are many out there floating around; new ones popping up and old ones being revised, almost daily.

    I suggest you have a look on DMT nexus, they seem to have some great ideas for alternatives, especially (to my delight) teks using non toxic solvents and reagents.
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  11. #11
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    Re: extraction. (DMT)

    Ugh...

    Buffa!! I don't have problems!! This is just a theoretical post!

    What happened to my yields long ago has been cleared up - I fixed it by fixing my friends problem. He had the same exact problem I did.

    Yucky emulsions not seperating - the emulsion held the DMT, or the DMT was just not ready to pass over while emulsion not tamed. So when the emulsion settled, the dmt also settled, so when evap was attempted - no dmt crystallized!

    Hmmm! So, I read a bit. and I figured out the problem. We need the emulsion simply be pushed into the non-polar - the emulsion to break, the DMT to become a solute in the non-polar. Got it. If I carried out an extraction I have 100% confidence I would get a very good yield.

    But. What this post was getting at. Is I don't want to buy 500 grams of NaOH and use almost all of it for one extraction of 500 grams of bark! That's very uneconomical! So, what did I do? I thought of changing solutes - a more polar solvent on the organic side will yield DMT at a lower pH, thus using less NaOH than with naptha!

    You're totally misreading my purpose
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    Re: extraction. (DMT)

    I don't really understand what you mean by 'pushing emulsions in the non-polar'? But it's only the alkaloids that go there. The high pH is to degrade plantmaterials that work as emulsifiers.

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    Re: extraction. (DMT)

    AH. Ok that makes sense, I Wasn't understanding the mechanism.

    So then the emulsion gets pushed into the polar. The alkaloids then would rather stay on the non-polar. Good! Good!

    Still!

    Nobody has commented on the pH ranges of these other solvents:
    Naptha : pH >11 (13 is guaranteed)
    Toluene : 10-11?
    Chloroform : 9.5-10?

    Edit: By the way, Chloroform + NaOH creates a very reactive intermediate:


    Does anyone know if by using chloroform you must then use a different base? Possibly ammonia?

    Someone smoked DMT this morning. It makes them feel soooooooooo goooooooooooooooood. It's like everything is wiped, clean slate.
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    Re: extraction. (DMT)

    I don't think anything is pushed anywere. And emulsions is just a mixture of a polar and non-polar slovent hold together by a emulsifier, a molecule that had a polar and non-polar part. The base just makes the alkaloid from salt to freebase and from soluble from polar to non-polar.

    Your hypothesis about pH-range doesn't work like that, as I said when the PH is Pka + 2 you will dissolve 99% of the alkaloids. It simple uncharges all the alkaloids making them insoluble in a polar solvent and going to the non-polar solvent which does dissolves the alkaloids and this is energetically favorble.
    So when the pH is 9,5-10 a lot of alkaloids is still polar so stays in the watery layer.
    Polarity is not the only factor that plays a role for instance naphta(petroleum-ether) is more polar than toluene or chloroform but nahta and chloroform give bad results on a mescaline extraction.

    The key to avoid emulsions is to do extensive filtration so that almost no dust, or particles are gone. Second, warm both the naphta as the polar solution till 50-60 degrees on a hot waterbad.

    I don't know about the reactive intermediate but what you drew isn't NaOH but I think ammonia is to weak. The QT-extraction gives DCM, chloroform and ether as and alternative and I know toluene and xylene also work.

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    Re: extraction. (DMT)

    I am almost certain that naptha is most definately not more polar than toluene or chloroform...

    Both toluene & chloroform have some dissolved particles in water - naptha has nearly none.

    anyways, new question;

    a friend of mine recently did a new extraction, and I cannot talk for him but he said for sure he got the pH to 13 which I am sure of, and he extracted with VM&P. What he got out was a very large amount (un weighed) but probably >500mg of crystals, pure white. What he had used for bark was <30 grams. this is nearly 2%
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    Re: extraction. (DMT)

    Quote Originally Posted by IJesusChrist
    I am almost certain that naptha is most definately not more polar than toluene or chloroform...

    Both toluene & chloroform have some dissolved particles in water - naptha has nearly none.

    anyways, new question;

    a friend of mine recently did a new extraction, and I cannot talk for him but he said for sure he got the pH to 13 which I am sure of, and he extracted with VM&P. What he got out was a very large amount (un weighed) but probably >500mg of crystals, pure white. What he had used for bark was <30 grams. this is nearly 2%
    naphta is much less polar than chloroform for sure.

    Your friend's crystals, were they pure?
    But I don't understand what your new question is
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  17. #17
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    Re: extraction. (DMT)

    He used a protein scoop of the bark powder - somewhere around 25 grams. He got out a very large amount - crystal white. I would guess what he got is atleast 1.5% by weight.

    How is that possible! most mhrb is said to have 1%?

    He hasn't smoked it yet, it smells of DMT, looks of DMT. But how can he be getting >1% by weight?! He only used Hcl, NaOH, naptha, so none of his solvents would have dissolved over...
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  18. #18
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    Re: extraction. (DMT)

    he probably worked very cleanly and had great quality material.
    Which solvent did he use? He also may have extracted other tryptamine alcaloids.
    [= Indolik]

  19. #19
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    Re: extraction. (DMT)

    naptha ^
    vm&p, it seemed to evaporate much quicker than my vm&p though, which I found odd...
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  20. #20
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    Re: extraction. (DMT)

    Maybe your friend just heated it more than you...
    I don't like naphta extraction that much, I prefer using diethyl ether. Much less emulsions, evaporates faster, and since it's pure solvent there are no residues like you have with naphta (and it smells good^^).
    You don't get pure DMT though, since you can't rectristallize well from ether I simply evaporate it, and ether also surely dissolves other alcaloids present in the root bark. But the stuff still sends you to hyperspace
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  21. #21
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    Re: extraction. (DMT)

    oh yeah one more precision: using ether instead of naphta will also extract DMT N-Oxide, which is an oily substance and also active. (it can also be easily converted to DMT though)
    [= Indolik]

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    Re: extraction. (DMT)

    My mistake, of course naphta is more NON-polar is what I ment, that is sound with the hyposthesis that the most non-polar solvent would most easily dissolve a non-polar substance.

    I think that high quality bark can have up tp 2%, at least I think I've read such results sometimes.

    I think naphta is preffereble for sure of ether, first if you do a good filtration, defat and warm the solvents you have no emulsions, at least I never had problems with it,
    second why should I want to extract more stuff like dmt-N-oxide to convert it later as I can do a very selective extraction on nn-dmt with naphta?
    Third-ether is a fucking dangerous solvent to play with, it is havier the air and will fire easily, secondly when storing it form peroxides which can explode almost spontanously.

  23. #23
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    Re: extraction. (DMT)

    leave diethyl ether to the chemists

    I think I got everything I wanted out of this thread - thanks guys. The rest is experiment
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  24. #24
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    Re: extraction. (DMT)

    Sure it depends if you want just the DMT it's better to use a solvent like naphta.
    However extracting DMT N-oxide can help you have better yields if you can convert it to DMT.
    But yeah I understand why people tend prefer naphta.
    And I won't argue that ether is really dangerous. You have to know how to handle your solvents

    EDIT: yeah thats probably why I AM a chemist. Love dangerous stuff :p
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  25. #25
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    Re: extraction. (DMT)

    Quote Originally Posted by timespace
    Sure it depends if you want just the DMT it's better to use a solvent like naphta.
    However extracting DMT N-oxide can help you have better yields if you can convert it to DMT.
    But yeah I understand why people tend prefer naphta.
    And I won't argue that ether is really dangerous. You have to know how to handle your solvents

    EDIT: yeah thats probably why I AM a chemist. Love dangerous stuff :p
    I'll be there too - right now my beakers and flasks are just salsa jars and sobe bottles

    I think you get the same results with toluene or chloroform - you will bring over 'jungle spice' which is a red/blood colored crystal very active some say stronger than DMT - which was said earlier in this discussion.

    So - my hypothesis is more polar the solvent, more alkaloids you'd pull over.

    How would you seperate N-Oxide dmt from nn, or would you just run both under 1 reaction to have 1 product of nn?
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  26. #26
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    Re: extraction. (DMT)

    no you don't need to separate them.
    read this, may be interesting for you: http://forums.mycotopia.net/botanicals- ... n-dmt.html
    [= Indolik]

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    Re: extraction. (DMT)

    thnx
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    Re: extraction. (DMT)

    hi,

    if you look in Tihkal Shulgin does a workup of dmt using DCM and finds that 3% of his product is now 2-Methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-b-carboline. i don't have facilities for an extensive test, but i think chlorinated solvents could degrade dmt into this, or some kind of betacarboline. this could even make the dmt stronger, who knows. some rootbark which sat in a hot car trunk in august yielded much less yellow dmt crystal than normal on freezer precip. but when the naptha was concentrated down to 10% a very large yield of orange dmt was obtained (mostly the n-oxide perhaps). it was solid, but slightly sticky. it was strong, stronger than the yellow i think, or maybe a bit longer lived. people liked it alot. an evil shaman was envious of it.

    i have some prejudice against dcm because it gave me a wicked emulsion a long time ago. but that was on an aqueous solution from rootbark that was boiled excessively, a big no-no.

    i used to do an extraction of powdered MHRB into water titurated to pH4 with HCl at 60C. after straining the bark the water was allowed to settle, the top layer decanted from sludge, concentrated by boiling, then allowed to cool and settle again, and finally vacuum filtered through celite. obtaining a solution free of particles surely expedited the following extraction. defats with xylene and naptha were done. then 40-50% warm NaOH solution was added. and the product extracted 3x with naptha while the solution was warm.

    freezer precipitation gave product of excellent quality, with very little yellow color. yields were on the low side 1% maybe. but at that time .57% was the published literature value, so 1% was considered a good yield.

    but the amount of work was excessive. using the STB i can get near 2% yields, and i prepare the same amount of dmt in 3 days that i could in a month before using half as much rootbark. the yellow color can be cleaned by recrystallization if desired. 4 recrystallizations would make it white. but only half the product improves in quality usually (the top half), the lower half gets worse. still, even without recrystallization the product is a solid powder, not sticky, and smokes well (if you remove the base).

    what i am really excited about is using fumaric acid saturated acetone to instantly turn this crude yellow dmt crystal into fluffy fumarate salts, allowing all the impurities to be sucked away on the vacuum filter. this could make for an excellent purification.

    or maybe we can dispense with nonpolar solvents altogether and extract with alcohol or even acetone, using a soxhlet if desired, and then clean the product easily by precipitating it as the fumarate.

    simple alcohol extraction gives a yellow oil IIRC which is perfectly active. but an oil has a lower market value than crystals, is hard to handle, and probably oxidizes more quickly also. i think it is only popular in australia where they cannot import any dmt-containing plants like MHRB. they use alcohol to infuse dmt from local acacia species into a smoking blend called changa. i've never been able to try it. the acacia species contain 5-meo-dmt also, and possibly other things, making changa probably the most powerful and also lowest tech dmt-smoking preparation around.

    the optimal amount of NaOH for a STB is almost half the weight of the MHRB. for me this is $.60 worth of base and $60 worth of MHRB, so there is no reason to skimp on the base.

    i have a simple STB tek. i guarantee good yields with very easy to get materials. it uses a metal naptha can as the extraction vessel. which is cool when the can doesn't rust. but sometimes it rusts, you can clean the rust from your nonpolar by drying it repeatedly but it sucks.

    mix one pound NaOH into 2 liters water. dissolve the NaOH then add 200g NaCl iodine-free and dissolve that. put 800g powdered MHRb into the gallon metal can (a one gallon glass mason jar just does not work as well, fuck if i know why). then add the 2 liters of NaOH/NaCl solution. shake the can end-over-end until all the MHRB is wetted and homogenized.

    put the can in a hot water bath where the water is 2/3 the height of the can (visible steam on the surface of the water). you could even use a gas stove if you had to, just make sure the cans are not leaking lots of vapors, and don't pour hot naptha anywhere near the stove.

    let the NaOH digest the powdered rootbark about 15-30 minutes, shaking the can every 15 minutes. then add 1 liter naptha. turn the can end-over-end, stopping occasionally to loosen the cap and vent pressure. there should be some pressure to vent, otherwise the solution is not hot enough and you will get crap yields. turn it end-over-end 100 times.

    put the can on the water bath and wait 30 to 60 minutes. pour off approximately 800ml of naptha into a quart jar. extract 2-3 more times with another 800ml naptha. to you hot naptha extract add 1-2 tablespoons MgSO4 and seal the jar for 30 minutes. filter the epsoms and put the naptha in quart (or gallon) jars in the freezer for at least 24 hours to precipitate the dmt. don't mix the different extractions together, precipitate them separately.

    remove the jars from the freezer, and gently invert them to pour off the naptha. the crystals will stick to the glass. when you are tired of watching the naptha drip, put the jar in front of a fan. the crystals can then be easily scraped off the glass with a knife. yields as high as 14g from 800g MHRB have been realized. the shape and dynamics of the can and running it right on the edge of too hot gives excellent yields.

    if you want you can recycle your naptha easily using a still, and precipitate more orange dmt after concentrating the solution. i suggest a continuous addition still.
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  29. #29
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    Re: extraction. (DMT)

    what i am really excited about is using fumaric acid saturated acetone to instantly turn this crude yellow dmt crystal into fluffy fumarate salts, allowing all the impurities to be sucked away on the vacuum filter. this could make for an excellent purification.
    Would the solid than be discarded, the liquid evapd, and the salts be crystalized?

    And WOO! The ending I am excited about : recycling naptha ! Totally didn't occur to me until then! saves alot of time, money and suspision!
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    Re: extraction. (DMT)

    Quote Originally Posted by IJesusChrist
    what i am really excited about is using fumaric acid saturated acetone to instantly turn this crude yellow dmt crystal into fluffy fumarate salts, allowing all the impurities to be sucked away on the vacuum filter. this could make for an excellent purification.
    Would the solid than be discarded, the liquid evapd, and the salts be crystalized?
    fumaric acid is one of the only acids that will salt dmt nicely. (picric acid is the other one but this is an explosive and not for sale usually.) these are the only salts that are mentioned much in the scientific literature as crystalline solids with definite melting points. the hydrochloride can be prepared in solution by tituration for IV use, but it does not form nice crystals even under a dessicator.

    i haven't tried fumaric yet myself, but the information has been widely circulating on the net for the last 9 months or so that dmt fumarate is nicely precipitated from a solution of dmt and fumaric acid in acetone. often this is accomplished by adding FASA "fumaric acid saturated acetone" to a solution of dmt in acetone.

    and of course all the impurities are massively soluble in acetone. so this could make for a perfect purification method, much expedient than recrystallizing repeatedly exploiting the varying solubility curves of dmt versus impurities based on changing temperature slowly. it would be parallel to the standard practice of purifying various phenethylamines by precipitating them from nonpolar solution by addition of HCl(g), filtering the crystals, and then washing the filter cake with a bit of ice-cold acetone to "whiten" it up. (of course, yes you are "supposed" to vaccum distill your freebase phenethylamines before salting them. but in practice a 98% pure freebase can made into nice white crystals which are basically "human grade" simply by gassing and washing the crystals. a recrystallization afterward could probably produce as good a final result as distillation, but often this is skipped if the color is deemed acceptable.)

    Quote Originally Posted by IJesusChrist

    And WOO! The ending I am excited about : recycling naptha ! Totally didn't occur to me until then! saves alot of time, money and suspision!
    naptha is really easy to distill at atmospheric pressure because the boiling point is low, but not as low as DCM which is hard to condense completely. i like to use water cooled copper tubing as a condensor for naptha. but there are many options.

    i find naptha can be distilled nicely without magnetic stirring by addition of some ceramic chips. (with xylene on the other hand it really helps to have magnetic stirring.) a waterbath is no good, you want an oilbath at least 40C hotter than the boiling point of your solvent. a mantle or flat-bottom flask on a hotplate, is fine also.

    evaporating naptha away is silly on a large scale. industry would never do it that way. after evaporating a liter or two i was totally annoyed with the concept of having that many naptha fumes indoors with no fumehood (even with that room sealed and a window open), or of placing a tray of growing dmt crystals and a fan somewhere in the backyard (looking like some deranged tweaker). also by 2004-5 everyone was talking about freezer-precipitating dmt for the best purity anyway. i always find it so funny that out of ALL these dmt teks out there- to this day not a single one talks about how to distill naptha (except yours truly). this is modern lab practice- recycle your solvents, etc. the advantages of recycling are obvious and numerous. simple distillation also nicely removes the blue dye from that blue naptha that is more widely available and cheaper than other brands.

    if i ran a still all day i could probably distill 10 gallons of naptha, with minimal effort. the dmt freebase/n-oxide/whatever in solution does not seem to be harmed to be in boiling naptha for some 6 or 12 hours. loose observations indicate that this amount of heat for this long does not change the composition.

    i never evaporate any naptha extract all the way to dryness now. i just concentrate the naptha down 10:1 or 20:1, then freezer-precipitate again. eventually the 10x concentrate is concentrated again to make 100x, and again freezer-precipitated. weird sacks of funky orange shit are accumulated, when you run out of everything else you can give it to people as gifts and see what they think of it. weird alkaloids have sometimes appeared in the 100x- little spherical brown balls were precipitated once. smoking these "little brown balls" with some white dmt, DEFINITELY increased and changed the effect. perhaps they have MAOI activity. maybe someday someone will help me identify them, i should have saved some for HPLC... sheesh...

    man, there are a lot of teks out there. but if you just want to process 800 or 833g MHRB quickly, efficiently, and easily into a solid crystalline product there is nothing as simple and direct as my metal can tek. it was based on Noman's tek and the 2005 Entheogen Review article "Dmt for the Masses." but i tried that procedure and while i had success at a small scale in a 40oz beer bottle of all things in a parking lot of all places, it DID NOT WORK PROPERLY in a bucket nothing but emulsion. and so the metal can tek was created, and it works much better. various people have wanted me to keep it a secret over the years- they all suck! one more thing, a little bit of sludge will dribble out when you pour the hot yellow naptha from the can into a jar. just decant your naptha from this sludge, then proceed to dry with epsoms and freezer-precip. there is a technique used to pour without spilling. it involves holding the can from the bottom using a cloth to protect your hand from the heat. the can is turned so that the spout is at the higest point possible when first pouring. you'll figure it out from there. peace. i was just reading Tihkal today. Shulgin notes that he makes psychedelics to help restore the balance of Eros against Thanatos in humanity. oh yeah! that's what i'm doing here too... i demand the cessation of all wars of aggression or acts of government aggression against innocents- including the drug war. when that occurs maybe then we can stop the civil disobedience. until then- no fucking way!
    Sanity Ain't No Picnic Either.

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