Thread: Psychonaut or Druggie?

At 12:15 GMT+2(06/10/2011), I conducted a survey of the forum: Psychonautic Research. 67 of the 77 articles were drug related; and of the remaining 10, only 1 post revealed useful information about "travelling/navigating the mind." In terms of views, 497584 people(92.13222%) have viewed the posts related to drugs, and only 42492 people(7.867782%) have read the other posts.
This gives us a shocking impression that most people consider psychonautics to be based on drug use. This, however, is not practical, because the drugs are often not available(to some), and the tolerance people build for the drugs would then act as an inhibitor to psychonautics. Instead, the psychonautic approach to drugs should be to learn what the mind can be, and then to strive for the same effect after the drug experience has ended. This would require of one to learn how to "navigate" the mind.
I can only conclude that most people who call themselves psychonauts, do so to justify their drug habits.
With the above in mind, I must now pose the question: Why are most of the posts under the forum Psychonautic Research, actually posts of Drug Research?

If you review the meaning of the word psychonaut, i think the answer to your question is obvious, but conditional im sure. I personally havnt met anyone claiming to be a psychonaut, who diddnt share a like view of reality and the mind. In fact out of the couple people ive met on this forum, they are some of the most interesting and intelegent people i know. and we get along, because we share like views.
Not because were druggies.

Im typing this reply in a room full of druggies. hard core drug addicts. i dont think half of them could even spell psychonaut.

It all comes down to the fact of wether or not the user is using the substance intelegantly.

You also must consider that psychonaut gets alot of g00gle traffic pertaining to drugs, and that traffic might not be particularly related to the intelegant population of the forum.
So i dont think your numbers can be completly credited.
But thats just my 2cents.

EDIT: Although i do aggree that being a psychonaut shouldnt just revolve around drug use. I think one should start with meditation, and exploration of the inner-self before trying even a small dose of mushrooms.

I think maybe it is true that we can pay more attention to other methods for self-exploration. But psychedelics are an easy way to do it and you can get results fast so in that way it can be a productive way for self-exploration and perhaps that's why the psychonaut community pay's so much attention to them.

Although I, myself have learned more from cannabis, meditation or the combination, than from (strong) psychedelics.

Actually, I don't think that I'm neither a psychonaut nor a druggie.

that's because news about "travelling the mind" (kinda meaningless term anyway..) is kinda hard to report. I don't know if you get me, but what exactly is there to report? some new psychology or philosophy paper? the real marrow of what this whole thing that we are more or less persuing is not exactly easy to put in words, and a process that is rather timeless and thus not so much subject to news - in contrast to the mal-nourished field of psychedelic research, which is what this forum is also about a lot.
also as tiax pointed out, people on here don't necessarily identify themselves as "psychonauts", which in itself is also a bit of a artificial thing to do. it's like saying one is a skater or a rocker or whatever, that's childish.

Instead, the psychonautic approach to drugs should be to learn what the mind can be, and then to strive for the same effect after the drug experience has ended. This would require of one to learn how to "navigate" the mind.

that may be your idea of psychonautics, I however think that this ideal is basically pretty useless if not very counterproductive.

Originally Posted by Tiax

Actually, I don't think that I'm neither a psychonaut nor a druggie.

You're a Swiss, that's an extreme category by itself.

Originally Posted by Larzsolice18

and of the remaining 10, only 1 post revealed useful information about "travelling/navigating the mind.

Define "useful information".

EDIT: @Larry_Golade : Damn straight I am, and just wait to see my hardcore cheese and my hardcore chocolate. < 3

To be honest, I've never met a person that knows the concept "psychonaut" and did not find out about it through some kind of drug related way, be it using themselves, or hearing it from somebody who uses. I agree that psychonaut literally means 'navigator of the mind', but I get the impression that to the general public it means something along the lines of "navigator of the mind through the use of psychedelic substances". That would pretty much explain the results of your survey..

Originally Posted by Larzsolice18

strive for the same effect after the drug experience has ended.

Are you aware why a lot of spiritual teachers don't want their pupils to use psychedelics?

Originally Posted by Mescaline

Are you aware why a lot of spiritual teachers don't want their pupils to use psychedelics?

why is that?

It was more of a rethorical question, and I probably shouldn't have said "alot of spiritual teachers", but the ones that I asked told me something along these line:

Aside from it potentially being to overwhelming for some people (which can be overcome for a great deal by a good set and setting), the actual reason I have been told is that most people having had a psychedelic experience can get the strong impression that "it" is what you should try to achieve when meditating (or on your spiritual path), that the experience is enlightenment. It is like you have created some kind of goal for your meditation. But this is the opposite of what meditation should be about. Ideally, there should be nothing that you are focused on. Especially not some hope to break through. There is no "finish-line", upon which you reach enlightenment anyway. This "haveing a goal" can in this way be extremely counter-productive. It is about "being" and "being" as such has no goal. It is right here, right now.
Also when people fail, or rather give up on achieving the psychedelic experience while sober, they might start to rely on psychedelics to bring them to "that place".
However, these same teachers are not "against" psychedelic drugs, either. They recognize them as being very strong spiritual substances. They also admitted that psychedelics can be very beneficial to some, especially when someone is "stuck" on their path. Also, not everyone would make the psychedelic experience to be the goal of their spiritual path. However, they would never recommend the use of psychedelics to anyone, simply because it would be unresponsible of them. One should have no attachments, so neither should you be attached to the psychedelic experience in any way.

Now, personally, I do not agree with this completely, as psychedelics have brought me many insights without which I might have become a completely different person. Also the insight that enlightenment is right here, right now, all the time, is something that can actually be learnt during a psychedelic experience. However, I do understand their reasoning, I can see why they don't encourage it.

well, pretty much all the spiritual teachers whose books I read recommended to stay away from psychedelics. it doesn't seem far fetched to write "a lot". also, that is a very sensible post I can very well agree to

However, back on topic. Larzsolice, isn't it also more likely to find the kind of threads you are looking for in the sections called "Art & Philosophy" and "Meditation, yoga, qigong etc." instead of under "Psychonautic Research"? The description of the "Meditation .. etc." section actually is "Because tripping every day is neither desirable nor possible: Non-chemical psychonautism. From sitting meditation to saluting to the sun.". Which, I think, is exactly what you are looking for. Also if I would open up a thread about the nature of the mind, or something similar, I would put it in the "Art & Philosophy", not in "Psychonautic Research".
The only threads I would put in the "Psychonautic Research" section would be the ones about studies involving psychedelics or other drugs, or studies that looked at the brains of buddhist monks while meditating by use of fMRI scans, or something similar. I'd say "Psychonautic Research" is for science, and psychonautism just isn't science (not yet anyway ).

Originally Posted by Tiax

Originally Posted by Larzsolice18

and of the remaining 10, only 1 post revealed useful information about "travelling/navigating the mind.

Define "useful information".

EDIT: @Larry_Golade : Damn straight I am, and just wait to see my hardcore cheese and my hardcore chocolate. < 3

The following link is just a chapter from a book called Cry of the Eagle. It will explain what I mean by "meaningful" in a way I might never be able to: http://www.scribd.com/doc/67288850/Inte ... -Operation

I have been experimenting with my mind for about 10 years now (since I was 10 years old). For me, it all started with a Peruvian shaman called Armando, and his knowledge of the use of Ayahuaska and Mescaline. The teaching of Don Juan, from the field notes of Carlos Castaneda, is a good example of a Teacher who used psychoactives to teach his apprentice, but stopped using them once the apprentice had a certain ground knowledge. I myself also use psychedelics, but I also know that a "trip" can teach me things which I may never have been able to understand as a human.
My problem wasn't with the excessive amount of drug-related articles, but with people's concept of psychonaut. Here I give you a link to another chapter of Cry of the Eagle, one which can form the basis of a Map with which it is possible to actually navigate states of awareness. It will also help give an idea of what "real" psychonautic research might be: http://www.scribd.com/doc/67866489/The- ... he-Dreamed
The book itself can be found here: http://www.scribd.com/collections/2848551/Toltec

The statistics (though not rigorously obtained) are what ought to be expected.

Drugs are both "chic," and serve as a gateway into the Practice for those willing to take those next steps. Even in the OP you specify that much of psychonautic practice begins with drug use, and that the sober Practice is typically follow-up. Based on this knowledge, why would you not expect that drugs would be the most popular topic? Those who become serious about it will be more interested in learning more non-drug techniques, but obviously they will be in the minority.

I've actually done ethnographic research on this precise issue, exploring the relationship between drugs and contemporary alchemical practice.

You should read it. It might clear a couple things up for you: http://michaelvipperman.files.wordpress ... lchemy.pdf

I lol'ed at the first post.

I can't tell if you are trying to label all of us as druggies and subsequently putting yourself on a pedestal, or if you are attempting to actually say something here.

A psychonaut is someone who explores the mind - its blatantly stated in the word itself. Drugs are tools which amplify this ability and open new possibilities or uncover what once was blinded.

You don't have to be a shaman to be a psychonaut, nor do you have to know a shaman, nor do you need to take drugs, nor do you need to post on a website.

I've been a psychonaut since as long as I can remember. I was four or five years old when I first asked my mom "Do you see the world the same way I do?" A child can be a psychonaut... You're a psychonaut when you analyze dreams, you're a psychonaut when you analyze why you reacted a certain way, and you're even a psychonaut when you analyze why other people act a certain way.

Taking drugs amplifies all these effects, you gain more empathy, you gain more understanding, you gain more clarity. Whether you use them to amplify for a temporary amount of time or whether you use them to build a stronger foundation of mental focus and analysis - its all psychonautism. You don't have to be on a spiritual journey to realize this.

Both i guess...

@IJesusChrist: +1

Well,
I consider any guy esplorign the mind by wichever tchnic a psychonaut. Psychoanalysis already is a very good example for instance. Meditation, we always speak about medidation! Well, I did give a try to it, yet nothings shows me my mind easier than LSD, so I really don't feel the need of learning something that doesn't belong to my western culture anyway.

Well, I'm not saying I take juste LSD like that. Actually I prepared myself for a very long time befor reading a lot and understanding how the drug could possibly effect, and this preparation has proven itself VERY useful during my first trip.
Also, I have a fair culture of psychology and spirituality, wich allowed me to put words on my experience. The trip report I worte was 18 pages long.
All that just for the one life-changing trip of LSD I had in my life! (I don't speak of the other one, wich was just a standard-dose try).

At the moment I'm preparing my next DXM trip, with the desire of understanding and overpowering some depressive symptoms I got on DXM last year. As I'm not completely crazy, I let other ones helping myself for this kind of depression, I mean professionnals, a therapist, and I've got an appointement today with a psychiatrist. So, to be a psychonaut is for me related to a big sense of responsibility, wich I did not always have, I'm not wondering why I landed into depression since I saw Shutter Island ond 400mg DXM...

I actually guess not so much psychedelic users will want to speak like I do about self-therapy (wich is the point I take drugs) or life-changing experiments, since those matters are pretty intimate. A life-changing experiment is a hard thing to describe, so how could somebody find the words to explain what happened on the last Mushroom trip last week? Well, I had to vomit, I saw my face in a mirror, it was ten foot tall, the music got into my brain like a cosmic worm, and finally I went out for a nice walk.

So, what can the forum members talk about? Well, the drug itself, the set&setting, the dose...

All the mindy freaky part, wich HAS to be actually meditation, is let to the individual, who has the task of understanding it on his own, reading books, speaking to other ones, actually meditating, and, maybe, share one or two questions on the forum.

So I guess there are more psychonauts on the forum than we could actually think regarding the figures.

One more point: One very DXM-skilled french speaking member of the forum (I am in the french forum) told us: "From now on I won't post DXM trip reports any more because it all got very personnal and weird, sorry". I'm talking of one of the guys fitting the best to the world "psychonaut" there's ever been on the french forum.

well its no surprise to think why there is more often drug related mind expansion and journeying, look at what year it is 2011 were living in a time so far drivin from the natural world and its long lost stories so far from the wondering of tribes and people with beliefs that we'll rip down a forest to brick up a few walls, the only people that have an open enough mind to still really believe in things like MIND TRAVEL and Mind Expansion are people who already take drugs.
face it people are being taught to believe that there is NOTHING to this universe Except the physical, and Drugs are bad **Shamans actually Humans have been consuming Psychedelic Molecules since the first Dawn, the first ever OUTER BODY EXPERIENCE was most definitely the direct influence from a DRUG.

our minds would not hallucinate so awesomely unless they were supposed to.
The BRAIN is a massive Chemical factory - true meditation is probably brought on by some chemical process deep in the brain.

a Great explorer off top of tongue - Albert Einstein would sit dazing out his window for Hours day after day he would sit down with a question problem, and come back with the solution.

We all get caught up in "The Race of Life" so often that to get enough time to meditate is hard and yes its a dying Art and should be practised by more, more often true. things of the past we slowly forget...

to Quote STYLOPLUME "I actually guess not so much psychedelic users will want to speak like I do about self-therapy (wich is the point I take drugs) or life-changing experiments, since those matters are pretty intimate."

i believe "travelling/navigating the mind", is a Life long journey we are always on this path Some get further than others faster, and the treasures the scars we bring back are very personal all we can do is describe these things but the FEELINGS remain ours.

a psychonaut is any one that questions the world in the search for answers that are not clear any one that looks to the stars at night.
we are all connected, and we need to start working together

I think the OP has a very good point, even if the 'research' seems a bit shaky.
To me, his head's definitely in the right place. So, thank you very much for posting that.

Words have power and using the correct word transmits the correct idea.

I also really liked Michael Vipperman's post about 'drug use' being the, somewhat necessary, gateway to a deeper practice, if I may paraphrase. That people start there, but a few will naturally sift themselves into the spiritual side of it. (am reading the link, looks good)

The issue to me is: if 'the spiritual side' is so obscured with big, flashy forums dedicated to 'dosing up on shrooms' and 'frying on cid, bro!' 'while playing my new xbox! yaah!' ... some will never get to the spiritual side before they are turned off, and/or end up here:

"Boulder man on LSD lies on U.S. 36, eventually pepper sprayed"
http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_19056920

or here:
"Half-naked climber -- possibly high on mushrooms -- rescued from First Flatiron in Boulder"
http://www.dailycamera.com/boulder-coun ... i_19315401

or here, yikes!:
26-Year Old Austin Woman Missing for a long Summer Month is Found Rotting in Air Duct Vent in Downtown Austin
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -duct.html
http://www.kxan.com/dpp/news/local/aust ... -in-system

...before ever getting the chance to experience their spiritual use. Plus, they make us all look like shit.

And those that tried these 'drugs', without thought of or even a clue that there could be any deeper significance, and possibly with a newspaper clipping recording their disastrous experience, may even later claim to know what mushrooms 'are about', due to their small dalliance, and deny any spiritual significance for others. (Obviously not for Jamie, RIP.) Reinforcing society's view that these are just drugs. 'Dangerous Drugs'. And that the experience is merely a high, or a deliriant, to make movies seem more colorful. Etc.

But, what is there to do? Nothing. It's a product of their being illegal, I think.
Etc.

Instead, the psychonautic approach to drugs should be to learn what the mind can be, and then to strive for the same effect after the drug experience has ended. This would require of one to learn how to "navigate" the mind.

...also how far from a conductive atmosphere many of us live. What our society expects from us. What mind states.
I agree, completely.


This whole thread is like a dream come true.
Love it! Every post.

Anyone who uses the term Psychonaut to promote their drug abuse as study is silly. That being said, there is something to be said of the ability for particular psychedelics, in coupling with other very simple experiences, are very profound and usually more concrete. I agree with the post above however, the forum poster that make comments like "Yeah I took six hits of acid I got from "Bob The Acid man" and laughed at the mysterious wall that appeared in my room!" sullie the spiritual and inspirational aspect of these entheogens.

i think drugs are like tools in some sense. so people who discriminate those who take tools are comparably silly to people who discriminate those who prefer not to take tools. the paradigms of such people are simply too ignorant and limited to allow different ways like their own.
to choose mental imprisonment consciously or unconciously. either way is insane. people that think like "the means jusfifies the end" or vice versa or "there is no other way" or similar shit are very often simply deluded. something like that.. i hope you know what i mean...



peace

I feel that there is a drug-use spectrum. One end of that spectrum would be consuming a particular dose of a given product under the direction of a shaman or therapist. At the other end is a garden variety crack-head. But really--the crack-head could be addicted to any substance. I live somewhere in the middle. I consider myself an alcoholic, and I consider that disgusting. I quit drinking a bit over four years ago. I first enjoyed drinking because of its effects easing social interaction, something with which I, for sure, have difficulties. I've used psychedelics experimentally, responsibly, recreationally and excessively at different times.
I was interested in psychedelic drugs for several years, starting in junior high before I ever took my first dose of mushrooms, and I didn’t smoke pot until after high school. I would read entries in PiHKaL and TiHKaL and find it so interesting that there were, apparently, all these substances that bend perception, reveal alternate realities, or take one on any of a multitude of journeys into the mind. I thought, “there are so many of them, and they’re all different. I have to try as many as I can.” That quickly turned into, “I wonder what happens when I take a lot of this one.” In retrospect, I wouldn’t advise accidentally vaporizing and inhaling 4 bottles of cough syrup worth of DXM, eating the whole sheet, or chewing up that Sweet Breath bottle. But, I would say that experimentation with psychedelics is an awesome way to explore the human perceptive experience.
I grew up going to a Christian church every Sunday. I recall the minister saying frequently that during prayer one should, “be still and listen.” I always had trouble with that. My thoughts would race, and I would get distracted from the task at hand. There were only a very few times that I was able to disconnect from my existence and open my third eye to receive insight. Psychedelics have helped me with this.
I’m not sure that I’ve ever called myself a psychonaut. Actually, I know that I haven’t. I have, in the past, wondered if I was druggie. I think that an interest in exploring the corners of my mind lead to the consumption of a variety of substances. Drugs, in turn, amplified that interest and sparked, at various times, interests in horticulture, chemistry, etc. These give me a really sweet outlet to be as nerdy as I want. I’m pretty sure that being a psychonaut and being a druggie are neither mutually exclusive nor have a causal relationship.

I feel one should start out by getting into the books far before they start getting into the drugs. The drugs aren't going to help you to come to any profound realizations unless you have a desire to have those realizations. I just joined this forum because I'd like to find more serious psychonauts who are focused on inner exploration instead of the common drug users who think they are deep because they did acid a couple times. There's a difference between us.

I have done a lot of things that have expanded my mind, the most significant in my life were not induced by doing any kind of drug. The experiences that I had when I was younger were definitely productive to keep my mind asking questions, some of those where far outside the norm. Because of the questions I asked that were outside the norm I grew into a well rounded person. One of the best experiments that I ever took on was education. I had a few teachers that taught me how to think, and I continued to ask questions.

The sad truth is that we are creatures that need stimulation and prefer immediate gratification to something that takes many hours or even years to obtain. Taking a substance to catapult you there is a faster route and, in my opinion, provides much dirtier results. We live in a world that moves fast and when we are plugged into the grid we feel that we don't have time to explore our mind. If you can take a few grams of mushrooms you get in and out quick and can even go back to the grid on Monday.

A druggie probably wouldn't be able to comprehend the thoughts contained in this forum, they are a sad statistic of life and the reality we live in.

Ignorance is bliss. And I don't like that >.> I don't understand how some can live so long so narrow minded then succeed because others are also living in that state. I just don't get it. How people even came to this point of world views. everyone is different I know but i only seem to find well minded people such as yourselves rarely in RL.

It is the differences that make the world colorful, I would hate it if everything where purple or green... or purple and green! LOL It does get frustrating listening to the things that divide us, sometimes I want to stand on a soap box and scream. I know though that if I do that the rubber room is only a moment away. This may be why you feel that you cant find like minded people in RL... we are out there.

Here on the net we have a certain amount of perceived anonymity. Along with that there are no preconceived opinions, no stereotypes. This makes the exchange of free thinking minds as open as possible.

For instance you see a guy on a blackberry wearing a $3000 suit talking fast about stock markets and emerging economies... would you think that you could have a conversation with him about any of this? Yet he might be one of the posters here.

Lets say that same guy sees someone in ripped jeans and a tie-dye shirt sporting a Jimi Hendrix logo wearing a weaved beret and sporting dread locks. Can you imagine them sitting down and having wild conversations about mind expanding topics? Can the guy in the business suit sit down with this guy?

I think that there are more people out there that are incognito than you think. I also think that this is because if you make to much noise you will get it from the left and the right and... the center.

Reality is more complex than just separate the people here in two groups, between the "psychonauts" in one hand, the "druggies" in the other. Personally, I am both. Yes, I am a druggie : for the last six years, I took quite large amounts of a wide variety of drugs, not every time in a psychonautic state of mind (sometimes it was actually to explore my mind, but some other times it was to party, sometimes to study, sometimes just to get high, and sometimes for no particular reason but because of the habit). And so? On the other hand, I could claim to be a "psychonaut" too : not only because of the acids I took, but because of the dozens times I experienced lucid dreams and OBE's while sleeping. So, it seems that being a "druggie" doesn't prevent you to explore your mind...

I guess it is perspective, depending on your deffinition you may be one or the other. Best not to put labels on things that is where it gets complicated, complications are what start wars. There was a day that I did what you talk about. From 15 to 24 it was a wild ride. I was labeled then, maybe I am now... who knows.

Regardless I enjoy living and sharing my. views with people. We need ignorance or else we'd never learn we need it all to learn I suppose o well time to pack a bowl. You guys rule have a good one.